Running Instances

[Broog]

Moritz and I got in a bit of a discussion today regarding instances. He is entitled to his opinion, and I mine, so no big deal. I, however wanted to throw this out to everyone else, so they knew exactly what was being said and could make a decision on their own. Additionally, I want to be able to help people who decide they need help.

The discussion revolved around what people who aren't geared to run the high end level 80 raids really wanted. Moritz contends that what we need to do for these people is run them through heroic instances so they can get geared as quickly as possible and then subsidize this gear with craftables.

I contend that there is more to the game than just the raiding, that running the instances at normal difficultly and allowing people to gear up slowly is something that others would like to see as well. I contend that there is a lot people don't get to experience when they jump right into heroics. Furthermore (and I am talking through experience here) when people aren't geared for heroics and they go anyway, they don't feel as if they can contribute the way they would like to.

I don't care which side you take in this discussion, what I do care about is not leaving people behind who don't want to run the heroics and can't find a group for the normal instances. Kegger and I would love to help you guys out. I can either heal or DPS the non-heroic instances if you would like to. We want to get you ready for raiding, but not at the expense of your enjoyment of the game. Raiding at the non-heroic level will for no other reason, teach you the bosses and what can be expected in the instances.

So, I'm throwing this out to all those who just hit 80, are approaching 80, or someday hope to hit 80. How would you like us to approach your new found level cap?

[Kamui]

there are people who aren't even interested in raiding, regardless of their gear-ness. And that's ok.

Simple solution: if you want to take your time and learn instances the old fashioned way, then do so. We can't make you come to heroics.

If you want to join the guild raids ASAP, then ask for help. It will be given.
We're all smart people here. We can all learn quickly, and no one is going to give you the boot because you didn't know how a given fight goes on your first try.

This is not a raiding guild.
This is not a pvp guild.
This is a have fun and make friends guild.

[ThaMan]

I think the reason you two can't come to an agreement is because there isn't a cut and dried answer. I don't have time to play much. Family and Work take precedence, but when I get time, I do enjoy to play. But since I don't have much time, I like to take as many shortcuts as I can. That's why I love the add-ons I use.

QuestHelper and Cartographer, which I have just found this week, have made my life much easier.

So, for me, I'd love to go through an instance, whether it be Heroic, or Regular. I've only been through about 3 instances total. I solo pretty much everything.

But in my case, taking me through Heroic (when I do hit 80, which I plan on doing) would probably be a waste of time for everyone taking me through, since I don't have time to play that much and therefore can't raid. When I do have the time to raid, I usually don't volunteer because since I've never done it, I would totally suck, and therefore be a hindrance to the group.

There are varying degrees of play style, and therefore both of you are right. Depending on the player.

[Namoric]

Have fun?

When I feel that I have to do something in game, it'll just turn me off to it. I understand that hitting 80 is just one step in WOW and I'm cool with that. I've never seen past the first boss or two in Molten Core back when 60 was it

Never seen the end of ZG or AQ or ZA or Kara

It's the grouping, the friendships and the good times that I enjoy regardless of whether or not we're running instances, heroics, group quests, open-world quests, or if I just log in to shoot the breeze while I scan the AH.

But that's me. Everyone has a different play style and what they want to accomplish. To me, WOW and WAR are a venue that I can get to socialize and "hang out" with some friends that I've made from around the world. It's a moment of Zen where I can zone out and have a bit of "mushin" and relax after a day of work, kids, bills or other general stresses.

Maybe I'm not one to ask as a part-time player. I'm a social gamer, only passingly care about gear and stats. I think I would be upset if someone didn't think I was good enough or looked down on me because I chose not to just blast through content to get to other content.

This is rambling and I'm tired and I'm going to head to bed... but ultimately I just want to have fun and play the game with friends.

[Demeth]

I tend to gear up as I go, in instances, and with crafted pieces. I don't have quite the same experience others have, reaching the level cap and not having seen the dungeon content, because I like to do it as I go. I solo well, but I far prefer being in a group of people I know... ::looks at you guys::

I do like to see all the fancy endgame stuff, y'all know that about me, and I see myself as a resource in that respect. If anyone has questions, I'll hopefully be able to answer with actual, practical experience. If I get the opportunity to create a run, I will, checking with guildmates first and often giving up rather than pug a final spot or two. If I catch wind of someone else creating a run, I'll always advertise for empty spots in guildchat. Everyone knows this, I do it all the time (although usually do my instancing a bit late in the day, because that's when I'm less likely to need to AFK).

I'm big on concentrating on my main, my Troll has serious depth. Naturally I look to fill in the "blank spots" and do something useful if I'm stuck on my own. I went from regular instances, to level 80 instances, to heroics, to raids, to heroic raids. It's a natural progression. If you play less, or play several characters, your buildup (progression) simply won't be the same!

My personal rule is simple: guildies first. If someone needs materials I have to create something they need, I break it out. If I get a BOE drop someone can use, it goes to them, or I stash it/Vault it, can't say I ever AH stuff. If I can help a run happen, I'll join in. If there are spots open in a group, I'll always give LOA the option to join, but I don't force anyone. My only real quirk is that I hatehatehate running people through trivial content, it bores me and kills my enjoyment of the game.

All that's really happening here is that some of the more advanced people are offering to help people with their progression. There are those who'd be thrilled by the opportunity to go! It's all cool. My thought is that if I'm putting the effort into making something succeed - it's a million times better if a guildmate is there to reap the rewards alongside me, rather than some stranger I have no connection to and may never see again getting something awesome. Doing a Heroic version of an instance will still have you complete the same quests you might have picked up from the storylines outside, and you essentially do the same fights, but they're more challenging... I don't see the distinction in needing to go non-heroic once you can do heroics (assuming there are people that can, and want, to do the heroic version at the same time). And heroics have better loot tables, and the emblems to buy specific loot, that the regular versions don't.

This is kind of a neat reversal thread. Usually guilds face the issue that someone (or his second or third or fourth alt) has a toon that skips everything in the rush to get levels, and tries to force himself directly into the uberest endgame content, jeopardizing tricky battles and forcing out other players out in the process... refreshing to see a POV where someone's not interested in taking the help to get the gear.

[Teidilu]

I sat here reading this thread, trying to figure out how to respond here. I think all that can be said has been said very well here (Both sides)

1. We have people in the guild that have already seen it all and are at the lvl of the game (and geared) for heroics.

2. People who have rushed through lvls to get to the raiding part of the game (heroics) but really can't yet because of gear.

3. Then the ones who play to see the game at all lvls. (normal then to heroics)

4. Last but not least, the ones that play just to relax. (casual players)

I fall between 2 and 3. But I am finding it really hard to do normal, unless I find a pick up group, so I don't....because I really dislike pick up groups. I joined a guild to get to know a group of people and to be with people I can trust, have fun with and not worry about some Joe blow sending me a /tell how I am *f... or what ever curse word you want to slip in there, under geared I am or I need to learn the place. And it has happened. Plus being really shy in real life doesn't help =)

I want to do Heroics, but I am not experenced enough, because I haven't done many normal ones yet. (Nor am I geared enough) I am still in the stage of learning my roll, other players rolls and learning the places. And most people on this server don't have time for that, because most have been playing the game a long time or they want to rush through the places and blame the tank or healer for the wipe out.

Now with all that said, I don't expect anyone to run me through a heroic to get me geared or to baby me through a normal one that they have already done. (Much love to Doa and Keg tho for doing so and teaching me! And the others they dragged with them to help me and others. And yes Keg, I am trying to talk more in /p ) But I would love for the ones like me to maybe make a date a week, like the ones doing heroics, to raid on normal.

Why don't we just post a place we like to learn and just do it on our own? Maybe on the same night the Heroic ones are going on. I am sure there is enough in our guild that haven't done alot here either to do so, but just dont say anything, like me.

If anything, I would love to just so I can get to know more people in the guild. I really haven't had that chance because of my lvl and gear...and now I am at lvl 80 and I am still finding it hard to get to know alot of the people here because I can't join anyone in what they are doing. And that is main reason I rushed to lvl 80.

[Savistik]

I agree that simply blasting people through heroics to get them geared for raiding isn't going to serve us well and it isn't much fun. It's one thing to do that with your alts when you have the mental experience and knowledge under your belt. It's another thing to think that a bunch of geared people will do anything other than wipe and run up repair bills if they're thrown into raids. And I don't think anyone should feel that they're obligated to do anything.

Everyone needs to progress at their own rate. I don't think the fact that we're not a raiding guild should deter us from raiding and doing heroics. Having a plan and desire to do regular raids does *not* make us a raiding guild. Having mandatory raids and expectations of participation would make us a raiding guild.

What needs to happen is that those further along need to realize that the rest of the guild isn't going to move as fast and those who play more casually that they may take longer to catch up or get things they want.

[wooze]

My two coppers......

I just came back after nearly a two year break.

A lot of good folks in the guild I am getting to know. I was just starting to level and saw that a large majority were already at 80, and already running heroics exclusively within a month of the expansion release and joining pug raids or even leading them.

I was intimidated, no way I can fit in or catch up with these guys, they won't have the patience to tell me how each boss fight works, or forgive me when I die a lot or even wipe a group(haven't done that yet:), but it will happen!

Finally Barodahn, bless him talked me into joining a few heroics. I may have been carried through the instances, hope I done my share, but that isn't the point. Everyone was helpful, supportive and patient in teaching me basic group mechanics I'd forgotten and boss fight instructions after my long break.

I'd be happy to see all those instances I missed as heroic or regualar versions, don't matter to me. I don't see much a problem, I've seen just from memory a half a dozen times raid and heroic level guys have volunteered to join a non heroic dungeon group just to make it happen without forcing a guildie to find a pug 5th person.

I don't really join heroics much, but plan to soon. So far, been impressed with the patience people have to help others. I don't think its all about getting everyone to raid level, its just about helping people or preferring even a mediocre geared guildie over an annoying wildcard random pug guy.

Starting to ramble hope I made sense, it friggin late.

[Namoric]

That's one point that really needs restated:

That everyone that's beyond the current end-game content is willing and WANTS to help those of us who are slow (looks at the mirror) is awesome and why this is such a great guild.

The bomb-diggity I would say.

That folks are debating / arguing / discussing the best ways to help others is really double cool.

Now if my kids would argue over who gets to do the dishes, life would be perfect.

[William_Moor]

Now if my kids would argue over who gets to do the dishes, life would be perfect.

Now you're just being silly.

[Landro]

I agree with the fact, this is LOA. Have fun, make friends. Unfortunately, WoW is not about that. This is proving it. WoW is too focused on the epeen side of MMO Gaming. I am not trying to be offensive to anyone about this, but I have seen this many times with my experiences with WoW. A guild gets started by a bunch of friends. Everyone together having fun, until people want to raid. Then the trouble starts. Not saying this will ever happen with LOA, but the problem with WoW is that it is going the way of FFXI. Becoming another job. Having to run the same thing OVER AND OVER 100 time to get a couple items before you can go do a Raid Instance with friends is just, well retarded in my eyes. The end game of WoW is what pushed me away. I tried to return because a RL friend of mine, but when I log on I just can't play long enough before I get that irritated feeling I always had. MMO's should be based off the class, knowing the class, strategy, skill, and a little luck. Not just GEAR GEAR GEAR. This is why WAR, LOTRO, AoC have a much better setup with this part. Yes WoW is huge and popular but why. It's cheap to buy, easy on PCs, but mainly because it plays on the epeen inside people, some like to always try and be bigger, better, rather then having fun. AGAIN I KNOW THIS IS NOT HOW LOA IN GENERAL LOOKS AT THIS BUT THIS IS WHY THINGS LIKE THIS ALWAYS COME UP IN WOW. I have seen this game ruin friendships, not just in game ones, but between people that have been like brothers all their lives.

Honestly there should have been NO ARGUEMENT about this. This is LOA, everyone plays how they want to play, no matter what. It's about having fun. If you feel tha others are too slow for you or you want to raid now and don't want to wait on others to do it their way well......

[Broog]

The whole purpose I had behind posting this was to not discredit Moritz or anyone who supports his opinion. The purpose was to let those who didn't know that if they want to run non-heroics, or gear up slowly, or maybe just want to run through something because they've never seen it before, that they can let Keg or I know and we would be happy to help them out. In fact, he and I were talking (I believe Moritz even volunteered to go) about having a Karazhan run just for those who had never seen it cleared and would like to check it out sometime. I know I would like to do that with a couple of the Outlands dungeons.

So, anyone who doesn't know what to do when they hit the end game, let us know. There is something for everyone.

[ThaMan]

I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't get the sense of an argument at all. I got the sense of a friendly debate. Keyword friendly. I don't know where this argument thing came from.

Chill dude :tongue:

[Namoric]

I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't get the sense of an argument at all. I got the sense of a friendly debate. Keyword friendly. I don't know where this argument thing came from.


Think that was my fault, I used argument in my post even though I didn't think anyone was really arguing about it.

[Landro]

Think that was my fault, I used argument in my post even though I didn't think anyone was really arguing about it.

NAh, me neither...was jsut putting my 2 nickles worth in :)

Mine was more in hopes it would stop an arguement. HEHE....get all the negative out there then no one can say anything negative MWAHAHAHHAHA!!! :diablotin:

I deserve a :barebutt:

[Demeth]

NAh, me neither...was jsut putting my 2 nickles worth in :)

Mine was more in hopes it would stop an arguement. HEHE....get all the negative out there then no one can say anything negative MWAHAHAHHAHA!!! :diablotin:

I deserve a :barebutt:


I be a troll, mon, but I avoid dem in da Forums, like dat first post of yers.

Not sure who you be playin' WoW wit', or which thread ya be readin', I be puzzlin' and puzzlin' til my puzzler was sore about dat... but dat be a Landro post for ya, mon.

:browsmiley:

[satanstesticles]

i was only level 73 when people were first reaching 80, so obviously i have been lagging along behind a large amount of those who are already running heroics

i have gone along, questing by myself, running instances here and there, slowly building up my gear so that when i reached 80, i would be decently geared. hitting 80 the other day, i have all blues, and a single epic that took weeks of farming... i hit my first heroic pug the other day, and realized that even though i took time to get geared, i was still getting pwned.

its nice knowing that people in the guild are willing to help others gear up, whether it be on regular or heroic. i think that in the long run, the majority of the guild is looking to help others get raid-ready, so that , as a big family, we can all get together and defeat some 25-man raids.

obviously everyone has their own play style though. I, myself, look forward to hitting 80 so that i can get into raids, spending a few hours fighting along side fellow LOA. others may just enjoy the slow casual grind, not caring about end-level stuff. its going to be another 2 years before the next expansion, so chances are, we will all be running raids together

just my 2 copper

[Vykenos]

It occurs to me that this might be coming up because of me in OS and my winning the T7 gloves after just becoming 80 the day before? I am not trying to say that it is a loot issue but an issue that came up because a fresh 80 is participating in 25 man heroic content.

Personally my feeling on it is this as it applies to me... I have done the gear up game... Before BC came out I geared up through MC, starting a few bosses and learning more... I geared up through BWL... starting with a few bosses and getting better... I geared up through AQ... starting with a few bosses and getting better. That was all before there were heroics so you focused on one area and the progression through. The fact remains that I know how to raid, and whether it is a heroic or not I will learn it the first time through and do it well. I am not looking to progress slowly if I don't have too... I am looking to play with LOA.

[Mebbid]

there are people who aren't even interested in raiding, regardless of their gear-ness. And that's ok.

Simple solution: if you want to take your time and learn instances the old fashioned way, then do so. We can't make you come to heroics.

If you want to join the guild raids ASAP, then ask for help. It will be given.
We're all smart people here. We can all learn quickly, and no one is going to give you the boot because you didn't know how a given fight goes on your first try.

This is not a raiding guild.
This is not a pvp guild.
This is a have fun and make friends guild.

IMHO Kamui hit the nail right on the head. Its all really up to the player.

[Savistik]

It occurs to me that this might be coming up because of me in OS and my winning the T7 gloves after just becoming 80 the day before?
I should hope not. At least absolutely not in this guild. If you show in a raid and aren't just a complete tool (i.e. don't listen or actively try to do ill), I think the opposite: I'm happiest when the person who stands to make the biggest upgrade wins.

I am a fan of self-policing. If I were playing so little that I knew I was not going to be even vaguely regularly showing and helping people, I think it's only polite to consider that before throwing in for a top-end item that is some kind of big upgrade for everyone. If you decide not to do the same, that's your choice and I won't begrudge you. That's just how I feel. If I know I'm going to participate, time-in-grade as they called it in the military shouldn't be a factor. Kind of the "you wouldn't bring a level 70 priest to heal a regular Halls Of Lightning [level 80 reg instance] even though he could get in by game rules, would you?"

Now, that said, I think there *are* encounters that we may run into (because they exist in older portions of the game) where too-low geared people can cause a liability. A situation where deaths cause adds to spawn on a boss or something similar is, *in my opinion*, a fair case to ask a severely under-geared person if they wouldn't mind sitting out. Again, if the crowd holds to the LOA I've come to know, we'd find a different boss to try, but it's a fair consideration.

Then again, we've all stated versions of the central tenet of LOA: Nobody should feel required to participate or not participate because of their level, gear, progress, or play time, except where such would impact the enjoyment of the group at hand. Kind of the first amendment of gaming.

[Methus]

Verbal Diareah......



Go away from LOA WoW forums. We in this chapter do not play WoW like you ever did. None of us see the game as you do. We enjoy it and you dont, that is clear.

[Namoric]

It occurs to me that this might be coming up because of me in OS and my winning the T7 gloves after just becoming 80 the day before? I am not trying to say that it is a loot issue but an issue that came up because a fresh 80 is participating in 25 man heroic content.

Personally my feeling on it is this as it applies to me... I have done the gear up game... Before BC came out I geared up through MC, starting a few bosses and learning more... I geared up through BWL... starting with a few bosses and getting better... I geared up through AQ... starting with a few bosses and getting better. That was all before there were heroics so you focused on one area and the progression through. The fact remains that I know how to raid, and whether it is a heroic or not I will learn it the first time through and do it well. I am not looking to progress slowly if I don't have too... I am looking to play with LOA.

I don't think anyone here thinks less of you for playing the way you play. I'm glad you're there giving your opinions and thoughts and help to others.

Not that my opinion matters more than flea squeeze, but I certainly don't have any issues with anyone in the LOA-WOW chapter playing how they need / want to play.

I'm a bit dissapointed that this turned into a bash WOW thread for some folks. I think we're having a very productive discussion full of positive comments and happyness (heh - I said penis ... hap-pyness).

:loa_pirate_woman:

so less negative, more sexy pirate wenches.

[ThaMan]

:loa_pirate_woman:

so less negative, more sexy pirate wenches.
There aint no stinking pirates in WOW. Only sexy Blood Elf Strippers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnjeJB8LfCU).

[Teidilu]

I'm not to sure about that pirate wrench.... look at those legs. I think that is a guy in drag!

[Palehorse]

I want to do Heroics, but I am not experenced enough, because I haven't done many normal ones yet.

Teidilu successfully MT'd heroic UK last night so you can disregard certain parts of her post above ;)

[Aelisa]

This is my 1st post ever anywhere so my 2 cents: I am available, with Broog and Keg, to run anyone through an instance at any level. There are instances I haven't seen a lot of , mainly old world Raids, but would like too. So if I am not already committed to something ask me to help.

[Savistik]

MMO's should be based off the class, knowing the class, strategy, skill, and a little luck.
They already made that game. It's called Team Fortress 2.

Honestly there should have been NO ARGUEMENT about this.
This isn't an argument. It's a discussion of what people want to do. It's absolutely normal for a guild that wants to have a plan for its members, rather than simply supply an expensive chat room.

Raiding doesn't mean the death of a guild or friendship. Snippy, greedy people are the end of guilds and friendships. WoW has plenty of those, but that doesn't mean we are doomed to the same fate.

The simple fact that this chapter endures for more than 4 years with many people returning after trying other games stands as proof that your opinion of inevitable doom and gloom isn't accurate. I respect the fact that you're a member of this guild and of this chapter, but, as was already commented, this isn't a "bash WoW" thread and we don't need that.

[Prophet]

I'm always down to DPS anything.

if it's an LOA grp...sign my ass up

:hulk:

Cravex - "I shoot thangs"

[Moritz]

First I want to clear things up in a few spots.

Vykinos, This conversation didn't stem from you. I am just jealous because I don't have those gloves yet, and I wanted to give ya a hard time :-p. So in case ya missed all those j/k notes after my smartass comments, I am refreshing that :)

Next. I agree with Mop 100% this game is about fun. Do whatever you want to have fun. Broogs statement about my stance on this discussion is a bit skewed. A rush for gear and raids is only for people who want to do that.


That brings me to my point in this issue. I do not disagree with doing regular dungeons at all. If you want to do them and need someone, go ahead and ask me. Likly I will do it. But the people who have talked to me have at least to some degree expressed they want to step into heroics.

Problem with WotLK is the jump between regular dungeons and heroics is a substancial one.

The point of the matter is this. If you want to run a non heroic for content purposes, for kicks, or because you don't feel you are ready for heroics. It doesnt matter the reason, ask and I will prolly take ya up on it. At very least set up a time where I will be available for one with ya.

If you want to take that step into heroics, level 80 dungeons don't do the job. The bulk of the heroic level gear is crafted. Getting into heroics without help is a difficult feat. I have had a lot of people who are trying to take that step ask me to bring them along.

This is why when Broog says im pushing crafted gear, hes right. Crafted blues are cheap, and effective. Especially for tanks. Crafted epics aren't to much more expensive, and in all likelyhood there are many people willing to help you make them. Blues with a few crafted will likely get your foot in the door for the easier heroics.

Tanks and healers of course have it the worst.

So to summerize, do what you want to have fun. I am sure there are people in LoA that don't even want to put their foot in a dungeon, I also know there are people who want to experience higher end content with the guild. Nobody is forcing anyone into anything.

If you need help, just ask. I am more than willing to help with regular dungeons, working on crafted gear for folks, or even dragging someone through a heroic to help them get some gear they need to do it themselves. It is all up to the person.