Dang, and my order just shipped

[Texicon]

Some patch notes....

Top travel power speeds reduced by 15%.

Balance tuning to critter attack power and player defensive powers.


Several powers have been reduced in damage. Regen has taken a 30%+ hit in its effectiveness....

Not looking good for day 1.

Official forums are exploding.

[Landro]

I don't know. It looks like the fixed issues that many were saying were overpowered. I'd rather they do fixes at day 1 and see how it goes, then re-do them again, rather have us complain for months before they fix anything other then cosmetic crap.

I say good job, see how it goes now.

I mean seriously. Look at my post about surviving in PvP. Heal Bots made me a god lol. I took a pure beatdown from the entire team all the while picking them off one by one. I mean I was 13-1 and made it in for the last couple minutes. I want to fight for my life, though I must say it was nice to be able to emote after each kill lol.

[Texicon]

Can your heal bots die?
Do they insta respawn?
Was anyone knocking down? back?

As I stated in another thread, there seemed to be ways to overcome the "OP" powers that I saw in PvP.

They could have made taking invuln reduce damage output by a certain amount. They could have applied a damage+healing debuff during block and for 10 seconds after block is used.

Just think there could have been other options and allow people to keep their "super hero" feel. This game isnt about PvP from what I have seen...why adjust PvE to it?

[Texicon]

Looks like Gadgeteers, form users (ice form, electric form, etc), those that dabbled in minor defensive builds, and power armor eyeballs of death got hit hard.

[Urthh]

Haha well all I can say is I am glad. Sorry but I like a challenge hence the gun toting maniac with ZERO defenseive passives. I run around with offenseive on and play that way. Also notuice it sayus TOP speed reduced 15% which isnt a whole helluva lot if you have TPORT which is already faster then flight and more combat effective.

[Texicon]

Henchmen should not be a challenge, so no apology needed to me. Some builds have been so decimated they arent surviving 3 henchmen. This is a super hero game...why should any build be scared to actively jump in a pack of henchmen? Villians and Master Villians should scale up the difficulty.

My builds in open beta were all offensive as well.

Also, currently they arent giving people a free respec. So those with powers that drasticaly changed are stuck (you can only reset past 5).

This is more of a cryptic WTF, we all knew some powers needed to be scaled back...but they waited until AFTER early start program to do it. That is bad form and scares me as to what other monumental f'ups they might do.

It is good for you if these changs had no effect on you, my concern goes beyond what characters I may make and towards the community as a whole.

[Landro]

Can your heal bots die?
Do they insta respawn?
Was anyone knocking down? back?

As I stated in another thread, there seemed to be ways to overcome the "OP" powers that I saw in PvP.

They could have made taking invuln reduce damage output by a certain amount. They could have applied a damage+healing debuff during block and for 10 seconds after block is used.

Just think there could have been other options and allow people to keep their "super hero" feel. This game isnt about PvP from what I have seen...why adjust PvE to it?

My heal bots can die, but they will heal each other too. So when my health is 100% they stop healing me. I get hit, I cast my Nano HoT and it keeps me alive, until they get done with each other, or I just jump into the heal stream and steal some healing :)

I don't think these were adjusted to PvP, jut from being all out OP. It is a little to easy to kill things. I solo'd 3 Quall Henchmen, and 2 Villian ones with ease. I liked it, but thought if it's always this easy I could see people getting bored.

I understand it's a supergero game, but if they made it so it was near impossible for you to die then no one would play to long at all. This is an action game, fast action. It's one selling point was you have to think through fights, a lot, not to be just another button masher. If it stayed this easy, then it's another button masher. I will say that if things don't feel right Cryptic will fix it. This sort of happened in CoH. It was too easy at release, then made too hard, then balanced pretty quick. They are great gaming company.

[Texicon]

I am not arguing that some things needed adjusting here guys...

Yes, solo'ing 3 henchmen and 2 villians is a bit much.

They went a bit too far and it completely hosed quite a few peoples entire build...and now they are not giving them a respec. This is bad business.

People are going to keep finding these superbuilds, what happens when 2 months down the road another one is found and a ton of powers get adjusted again? No respec, hell...most of it not even in patch notes.

[roland]

The problem that I see right now is that Cryptic scaled the defensive powers down too far. For example, I feel like I cannot quest anymore. I tried to do the quests I have that involved taking down Gadroons in Canada. Those are the only quests available for me at the moment, and I cannot complete them. The Gadroons hit really hard.

I have Personal Force Field at rank 3. It only absorbs 1500 damage now compared to 2500. What these numbers mean is the fact that instead of being able to pull 2 or 3 Gadroons and survive, I barely am able to kill the first one. But I cannot get the quest item because they travel in groups, and the other two usually take me down at that point. Whereas Gadroons hit for about 300-500 damage, I can only take 3 hits compared to say, 5 or 6 hits - and believe me, that is a huge difference where survivability is concerned.

I like a challenge too, but they scaled defenses down way too low. I understand the concern with PvP - but now PvE is suffering because of it.

So now I am stuck with quests I cannot complete at level 24. I did all my crime computer quests from Socrates already. The only way is massive mob killing -2 or -3 levels below me, or group questing. Most people I have seen though are either in the low 30s already or just starting out. And, not many people in the overall world population in CO want to group - another frustrating factor. Many are treating it like just a solo game.

As far as the respec thing - they should offer a full respec that is free, but can only be used once every 90 days. The problem with having a full respec available all the time is that everyone will just play the same type of toon - whatever seems to be overpowered that month.

But, personally, I think all of this should have been ironed out before launch. No doubt it was too easy during open beta - even early start. Now, good luck surviving seems to be the motto.

[Landro]

i have seen cryptic in work in the past. they will fix it asap.

[wooze]

Well I'm not min maxing, but I would like to choose a decent defensive power, since by the time they get around to fixing respecs, I won't be able to go back and change that choice..........IF I could even afford it in the first place.

Post patch, what is the best choice? I can make any of them but super reflexes work with my concept.

I hope they do some adjustments and in a timely manner. I'm a little surprise they did something like this to launch a game, but I am shocked they did this while still leaving respecs so impossible to afford.

For my character right now, for some reason I only have 2 powers on my respec list. At this rate, I can't see affording the first one in the next 2 levels, and of course by that time the respec price will have quadrupled!

[Texicon]

i have seen cryptic in work in the past. they will fix it asap.

You mean after official statements of no respecs, and saying "this is what yall wanted" when it obviously wasnt...

I am debating sending my shipment right back to amazon when it arrives tomorrow. Broad changes on launch day after numerous months of closed beta (if not a year), weeks of open beta, and early start....this has the smell of a bait and switch.

[wooze]

As far as the respec thing - they should offer a full respec that is free, but can only be used once every 90 days. The problem with having a full respec available all the time is that everyone will just play the same type of toon - whatever seems to be overpowered that month.


Too lazy to link, but I just read, tonight they are patching in a one time full respec, and tweak to the regular respec system.

[wooze]

Too lazy to link, but I just read, tonight they are patching in a one time full respec, and tweak to the regular respec system.

Bad reading comprehension on my part. Its not a one time full respec. It will still cost you.

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=50233

[Landro]

After playing last night I have absolutely no complaints. I was still able to fight as before, live as before, and kill as before.

Just a note. I was watching chat last night in Desert and more people are happy with the changes. All were saying the same thing. Yeah, I liked being able to jsut stand and rapid hit a button and not worry about dying, but it would get old.

You just have to think about your battles now. I will not be respecing at all.

[Texicon]

I am sure there are people happy, I am sure with my build I will be happy.

There is a very large contingent that is not. These changes should have been enacted in CLOSED beta and tested+balanced there. Instead they let people play open beta to try out the game and a lot liked it, and preordered. This is where bait and switch comes in.

Cryptics character builder is an open framework system allowing for almost limitless combinations.

There are going to be builds that are stronger than others....where does it end?

Qoute from the official boards

"I don't mind making it more challenging. It WAS a little bit easy. But this morning i died 3 times on a 3 henchman mob at lvl 23 with PFF on, Drones up, using ressurgence, using recovery pills (both of which have a 1 minute timer on them now, rediculous), and literally HOLDING block."

Lines like this have been common place.

[Ganelon]

Tex...my advice is to stay away from the official boards. :diablotin:

Seriously, in every game I've ever played... they have NEVER been a fair representation of the game. Post-release forums are ALWAYS weighted toward negative people who like to bitch. Positive people who are digging the game have less motivation to put up a soap box, because they are, you know...playing.

Here's the thing... for most of the people playing right now... there was no nerf. See... they didn't pre-order, get into the beta or head start. We have to remember that we, the game enthusiasts, are the minority. In fact, it's a safe bet to say that more people will be joining this game in the next two weeks than are subscribed right now... much more. For those people... it's all good. They take the chatter about a "nerf" with a grain of salt.

For myself, when I discovered block/regen invulnerability... I saw a broken feature that had to go. It would have ruined the game for me because I don't want a God switch. More... When Ganelonian utterly destroyed his foes in PVP, I was shocked. They were all the same level as me. There wre a mix of melee and energy projectors. Why was I able to survive to waste them toe to toe over and over? Level 2 Personal Force Field and Force knock back. Overpowered... Gamebreaking... and not by a little bit.

That being said, could these once overpowered defenses stand some tweaking up...? Sure... a bit. But as it stands right now, the game is challenging and playable... and I love it.

Perhaps if I had speed leveled and burned up the "easy" content...leaving me with little to do in my high level range, I would be bitching. I don't even blame those folks... they were playing the game as it is. But, that is simply more proof that a drastic balance needed to be made.

[Texicon]

"Post-release forums are ALWAYS weighted toward negative people who like to bitch."

Completely 100% agree.

This is a different situation though. The developer made broad sweeping changes to their open framework system after a year of testing...on launch day.

They also didnt have the balls to lay out the specifics in the notes. Btw, rumor mill has them rushing to adjust henchmen back down a few notches.

I need to be able to trust the developer on the direction of their game. Mythic and Blizzard burned me too hard so that when I see things like this it makes me REALLY nervous.

My copy is sitting on my porch (delivered this morning)...I am scared to open it. Not that I wont have fun....I enjoy a "challenge" as much as the next guy. Its the lack of information, kneejerk reaction after a year of testing, and dumb ass company line stance that they are taking.

[Urthh]

Tex it really is all about the build those people bitching are the ones who took power and abilities they knew were going to get nerfed due to being overpowered. You paraphrased someone who said they died to 3 henchmen and a villian but they didnt mention what lvl they were or the henchmen. This is not suppose to be I am a hero I can go clobber mobs 6 lvls higher then me and live. Thats what it was they toned it down alot. I know for a fact that my mini mines are due for the nerf bat, I expect it so I plan accordingly. Any power that drops 20 mines doing 350-400 per mine AOE that can wipeout 8 even lvl mobs at one time and take a villan down 50% need to be nerfed but I wexpect it thats the difference. People where saying in OB and Early start that powers were over powered and would be fixed and they are the same ones bitching.

[Ganelon]

People where saying in OB and Early start that powers were over powered and would be fixed and they are the same ones bitching.

So true.

I do understand Tex' comment that on launch day a major change goes into effect, with only vague intimations to that end. Many people on the boards are suggesting the "Correct Way™" to do it was to put the changes on the test server, wait a a few weeks... then roll the changes to live. In most cases, I would agree.

However, no nerf comes down without pissing people off. The more people nerfed, the more people get pissed off.

From a developer's standpoint, I look at the big picture. We have established that many powers, particularly the defensive ones, were over powered to the point of near God Switch levels.(Example: Even level block/regen combo was unbeatable). You are about to increase your playerbase by a factor of 10. In 2 weeks...even more so... and all those players will have that broken system.

Choices:
1) Pre-Launch: Throw in a broad 50% nerf of defensive powers, reduce XP on repeatable quests and slow down travel powers by 15%. This effectively changes gameplay for all pre-launch people, but post launch people don't notice a thing. Monitor the metrics and tweak up as needed, thus giving an slight "unnerf" for entire player-base.

2) Post Launch: After 2 weeks of testing, roll out nerf to entire playerbase that has had 2 weeks of game breaking overpowered over experienced characters. The nerf will likely not be as severe, but will still be a damn big bite from where it was.

I would consider option #2 to be bad business and likely to do irreparable harm to a new game.

Now, I would agree that this is the kind of thing that should get caught in beta... but QA simply does not work like that. I was in closed beta, and this game changed quite a bit. The devs were VERY responsive to player testers... more than any other game I've tested. I've SEEN direct advice from the testers overturn the character building framework so that what would have been a failure turned out t be great.

I will say that closed beta was a lessor experience than open beta... and Early Start was a better experience than Open Beta. Launch is tweaked to fixed inequities that popped up between the beginning open beta and early start.

It is my firm opinion that CO is closer to balanced at launch day than the day before.

[Texicon]

Tex it really is all about the build those people bitching are the ones who took power and abilities they knew were going to get nerfed due to being overpowered. You paraphrased someone who said they died to 3 henchmen and a villian but they didnt mention what lvl they were or the henchmen. This is not suppose to be I am a hero I can go clobber mobs 6 lvls higher then me and live. Thats what it was they toned it down alot. I know for a fact that my mini mines are due for the nerf bat, I expect it so I plan accordingly. Any power that drops 20 mines doing 350-400 per mine AOE that can wipeout 8 even lvl mobs at one time and take a villan down 50% need to be nerfed but I wexpect it thats the difference. People where saying in OB and Early start that powers were over powered and would be fixed and they are the same ones bitching.


Sorry, he was 23 and so where mobs (supposedly).

[Namoric]

They did similar things in WOW and other games - an example comes to mind about equipment deterioration at death in WOW - at one point prior to launch (like the week before) they made a 100% death penalty for equipment, meaning you would have to repair all your stuff after each death.

Then when they went live, they moved it to 25% or so.

[Morning]

After reading thru this thread, I'm glad I saved the $45. That'll buy me lots of beerz.

[Ganelon]

After reading thru this thread, I'm glad I saved the $45. That'll buy me lots of beerz.

I'm glad you are not playing. I get tired of you hitting on me all the time.

No means no.:barebutt:

[Morning]

I'm glad you are not playing. I get tired of you hitting on me all the time.

No means no.:barebutt:

slut. :p

[wooze]

After reading thru this thread, I'm glad I saved the $45. That'll buy me lots of beerz.

I don't really have much a reference to what things were like before. But I got the first uninterrupted playtime late last night and this evening. I'm having a lot of fun, though at the moment mostly solo.

I'm in game now, name is Warbreed@Kiley level 15ish